Help wanted for rear fender repair, What are measurement points for “s” Options

[seanpaulmc]

Greetings 914World !

I am seeking advice / guidance / instruction from you metal masters on how to approach and tackle this rear corner repair.

Panels involved include:
• Left rear quarter
• Taillight panel
• Trunk floor & cross brace
• Left side inner trunk fender

Some initial questions:
• Does the whole quarter panel need to be replaced, or just part?
• Does the whole tail panel need to be replaced, or just part?
• Can this repair be done well with partial panels spliced in? (Like what was done to the fender in the past but better executed with butt joints and less, a lot less, filler.)
• Should I start with cutting off what I think is bad or begin by striping the whole quarter panel of paint and bondo? Exposed metal rusts quickly in Florida.
• How and where to cut? What tools and wire size to use? How to finish, prep, and paint? -This is where I need your expertise to lead me.





This is my first go around at this.
Everything I do is a first-time attempt, and thinking about fixing this fender and taillight area while making it look presentable gives me a lot of apprehension.
So far, I have learned to MIG weld and do simple panel forming by working on this project – jack points, floor, hell hole, longs, firewall, and some tools and fixtures.
I can make solid welds in structural areas that are strong but don’t necessarily have to be pretty.
I do not (yet) have the metal finishing skills for this fender and am hoping I can get your guidance along the way to help me get through what I see to be a complicated, multi panel repair.

By making this fender repair its own topic thread, hopefully it encourages greater feedback from the community rather than if it stays buried in my long, slow build thread.
If interested in how it got here and the work done to the car thus far, then the thread is this one: here

I know I need to go take some measurements before cutting it apart just to get the baseline of where things are at. I hope to do that this coming weekend.

Thank you in advance for the feedback and support.

Gratefully,
Sean

[worn]

gives me a lot of apprehension.
So far, I have learned to MIG weld and do simple

Been there pretty much. A few questions. How much do you enjoy welding and shaping metal? I found that I could form and fabricate patches. There are some breathtaking threads in which whole panels are perfectly welded in prepped and painted. Sometimes at what must be great expense. I found that the panels are fine: except at the end or bottom or some fairly limited space. There you can peal everything back like an onion and start fabricating patches.
One thing that I highly recommend is to go online and buy a sheet of galvaneal steel. Welds nice and holds up. Good luck.

[bkrantz]

It al depends on what results you want. Perfectionist purists (if they had a car like this at all) would get all new panels and set things up on a jig. Their goal would be exactly like new, and undetectable repair.

Us mortals might be less fussy. 95 or even 98% right, with visible evidence of repair, is OK, as is "impure" ingredients and methods.

For example, you can fix that nasty fender with cleaner butt-joint welds, make the fender straight, and smooth the outside with filler. The inside would be a bit rough, but sealed. Is that satisfactory?

[Ishley]

I would buy panels before you cut anything apart. Also… invest some time in watching metal working and panel rebuild on YouTube. One guy I watch is “Fitzees Fabrication” on YouTube. He really does some impressive work with minimal tools. Pay special attention to how he does cut and butt…. And Works to manage warping. He also is brilliant and breaking Down parts to make complex curves etc. Take it one bite at a time.

[rick 918-S]

I would check to see if someone has a used quarter panel and replace the whole thing. It takes alot of time to split apart spot welds. I have some production methods from my collision shop days that work just fine to shorten some of the time spent. Dont try and fool yourself. This is a time consuming repair. You need the space and need to be committed to the process. As far as the rest of it goes, finish stripping off the filler and see how bad it is.

[mepstein]

Remember that almost every panel on the car is structural. So if you cut out one panel and there’s rust elsewhere, the end of the car can settle a bit. Keep that in mind and don’t cut out too much metal at once unless the car is on a jig or held level in place.

[Montreal914]

Sean, I too am at my first round in this type of work and I elected to replace the whole fender as mine was deforned from a previous small hit in the car's life.

This also gave me all sorts of access to the driver's side long which turned out to require derustation...

My fender is now pretty much fitted, but not yet installed as I am still working on the long... That is when I am working...

Luckily my rear panel isn't affected and I still have that reference in place.

[930cabman]

I would buy panels before you cut anything apart. Also… invest some time in watching metal working and panel rebuild on YouTube. One guy I watch is “Fitzees Fabrication” on YouTube. He really does some impressive work with minimal tools. Pay special attention to how he does cut and butt…. And Works to manage warping. He also is brilliant and breaking Down parts to make complex curves etc. Take it one bite at a time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I am starting a new project that has a previously repaired rear quarter similar to yours, using a lap joint. I am unsure how to go at it, but I am hoping to salvage what I have, if your panel is not salvageable, find a decent quarter and go from there.

[MikeK]

Looking at what you have, I'd suggest stripping it all down. I see a lot of filler.

As far as tools for stripping, I've been using something similar to this:

My Webpage

It's messy, but fairly fast and effective without grinding into the metal. More detailed areas can be stripped with a wire wheel on a grinder.

Once you see what your working with you can determine a plan. And I also agree with not making any cuts until you have the new parts.

[dtmehall]

Try this youtube video for starters. He also has one tackling repairs to the rear tail light area.

Restoring SHMEE150's Classic Porsche 914 - Tackling Bodge Repairs!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaT918goCTI

[seanpaulmc]

You guys are great! I appreciate all the good comments. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And, 250+ views with 8 replies...pretty good.

Feedback so far does give me things to think about. Which is what I asked for, and I appreciate.

Some replies on the comments I've gotten thus far:
I do like the welding and fab part. The car sits outside so I am constrained by weather and general exposure when a repair is left for too long. And, I do have a sheet of gavaneal that I've been chipping away at.
I like Fitzee's videos. I wouldn't have gotten this far without them! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I also like Yorshire Car Restoration vids. Check out "Patches" if you haven't yet.
I had considered the structural nature of all these panels coming together, not just the ugly failed lap weld in the fender, and that, I suppose, is why I'm more concerned about getting this right. Other repairs I've kind of just jumped in (after reading about them here), but wanted more of a plan with this one.
This project is more like a resurrection so I'm not looking for perfection. I will be pleased with a good, solid body for the base of a rolling restoration. Pretty comes down the road.

Thanks again! Please keep it coming.

[Ishley]

Honestly looking at your pics I think you might be able to fix that. Replacing the whole fender will take you up the sail panel and into the door pillar. A big complicated job for sure.

Get a paint stripper disc and take the paint Back much wider… and all the way back. You need To make sure what is there is usable. I think it might be.

Think about doing a patch job. Likely do it in small sections following up the bad weld. Once you have the fender lip area reproduced and patched in… you could just work your way up and fix that bad overlap Area.

You’ll need a mig that you can really dial in the temp and feed rate. Too much heat will warp the panel and you’ll have a mess on your hands. Plan to go slow and let it cool slowly to avoid shrinking and hardening the weld panel. Use .02 wire. Stitch weld really slow. Walk away after a few stitch blasts. Use .023 wire and gas. Flux wire will be way too hot. Even better if you have a tig but takes more practice and $$$.

Fitzees Fabrications will show you how to do it.

Around the back you can fab all those pieces with practice and patience. Make it all in small pieces and work thru it. The challenges with getting cut out parts from another car is that they will be thinner Metal and likely rusty and have their own issues. Personally think your better off fab’ing parts when you can. Welding new metal is easier.

Good luck and have fun with it. It can be very satisfying to do.

[seanpaulmc]

Honestly looking at your pics I think you might be able to fix that. Replacing the whole fender will take you up the sail panel and into the door pillar. A big complicated job for sure.

Get a paint stripper disc and take the paint Back much wider… and all the way back. You need To make sure what is there is usable. I think it might be.

Think about doing a patch job. Likely do it in small sections following up the bad weld. Once you have the fender lip area reproduced and patched in… you could just work your way up and fix that bad overlap Area.

You’ll need a mig that you can really dial in the temp and feed rate. Too much heat will warp the panel and you’ll have a mess on your hands. Plan to go slow and let it cool slowly to avoid shrinking and hardening the weld panel. Use .02 wire. Stitch weld really slow. Walk away after a few stitch blasts. Use .023 wire and gas. Flux wire will be way too hot. Even better if you have a tig but takes more practice and $$$.

Fitzees Fabrications will show you how to do it.

Around the back you can fab all those pieces with practice and patience. Make it all in small pieces and work thru it. The challenges with getting cut out parts from another car is that they will be thinner Metal and likely rusty and have their own issues. Personally think your better off fab’ing parts when you can. Welding new metal is easier.

Good luck and have fun with it. It can be very satisfying to do.

Thanks, Ishley. I appreciate the details and the optimism!
I watched Yorkshire Car Restoration fab up the same corner on their Patches 914 project and find it amazing that can be done from scratch.
Hoping to have the time this weekend to strip it down and see what else might be under that filler.

[friethmiller]

Interesting... that previous fender weld looks like it was a lap welded (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon8.gif) . Probably salvageable but I would need to see it up close. I also believe that, based on the other rust, the top tip of that rear fender is going to have rust holes covered with filler.

If it were me, I'd completely strip the paint and filler from the rear fender and then remove the back part from the car. With this out of the way, I could fix/restore the inner fender end, trunk, and the back crossing panel (might want to consider a donor or the new RD part). Once all that was in good order, I'd fix any damage on the removed part of the fender, finishing with the large new butt welded seam/patch on the rear fender. Totally doable!

[seanpaulmc]

The diagonal rear truck dimension is given as “s”.

It is easy to understand where it is measured at the tail panel. However, with the black and white picture and black line I cannot make out where the reference point is by the engine lid side. Further it looks like the trunk hinges may be in the way of taking the measurement.

Would someone confirm the measurement location for me?





s 17 18 Diagonal distance across rear luggage compartment 1588 mm,
62 17/32" Measured between inner corners of the lid weatherstrip seat

Thanks

[[email protected]]

Install a new quarter panel and new rear panel for a clean repair

Greetings 914World !

I am seeking advice / guidance / instruction from you metal masters on how to approach and tackle this rear corner repair.

Panels involved include:
• Left rear quarter
• Taillight panel
• Trunk floor & cross brace
• Left side inner trunk fender

Some initial questions:
• Does the whole quarter panel need to be replaced, or just part?
• Does the whole tail panel need to be replaced, or just part?
• Can this repair be done well with partial panels spliced in? (Like what was done to the fender in the past but better executed with butt joints and less, a lot less, filler.)
• Should I start with cutting off what I think is bad or begin by striping the whole quarter panel of paint and bondo? Exposed metal rusts quickly in Florida.
• How and where to cut? What tools and wire size to use? How to finish, prep, and paint? -This is where I need your expertise to lead me.





This is my first go around at this.
Everything I do is a first-time attempt, and thinking about fixing this fender and taillight area while making it look presentable gives me a lot of apprehension.
So far, I have learned to MIG weld and do simple panel forming by working on this project – jack points, floor, hell hole, longs, firewall, and some tools and fixtures.
I can make solid welds in structural areas that are strong but don’t necessarily have to be pretty.
I do not (yet) have the metal finishing skills for this fender and am hoping I can get your guidance along the way to help me get through what I see to be a complicated, multi panel repair.

By making this fender repair its own topic thread, hopefully it encourages greater feedback from the community rather than if it stays buried in my long, slow build thread.
If interested in how it got here and the work done to the car thus far, then the thread is this one: here

I know I need to go take some measurements before cutting it apart just to get the baseline of where things are at. I hope to do that this coming weekend.

Thank you in advance for the feedback and support.

Gratefully,
Sean

[seanpaulmc]

The diagonal rear truck dimension is given as “s”.

It is easy to understand where it is measured at the tail panel. However, with the black and white picture and black line I cannot make out where the reference point is by the engine lid side. Further it looks like the trunk hinges may be in the way of taking the measurement.

Would someone confirm the measurement location for me?





s 17 18 Diagonal distance across rear luggage compartment 1588 mm,
62 17/32" Measured between inner corners of the lid weatherstrip seat

Thanks

I’m thinking “s” gets measured at the edge of the seal’s track near the engine lid. Anyone able to confirm that?

[SirAndy]

I’m thinking “s” gets measured at the edge of the seal’s track near the engine lid. Anyone able to confirm that?

@seanpaulmc
http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php
Scroll down to "S" and click on the "17" and "18" links for more detail.

"Measured between inner corners of the lid weatherstrip seat"
"1588 mm, 62 17/32"

Should be pretty easy to find the spots that correspond to that measurement.

Also, this is really about everything being square, so once you find your spot(s), you need to make sure the cross measurements are the same for both sides.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[930cabman]

I’m thinking “s” gets measured at the edge of the seal’s track near the engine lid. Anyone able to confirm that?

@seanpaulmc
http://www.914world.com/specs/bodydims.php
Scroll down to "S" and click on the "17" and "18" links for more detail.

"Measured between inner corners of the lid weatherstrip seat"
"1588 mm, 62 17/32"

Should be pretty easy to find the spots that correspond to that measurement.

Also, this is really about everything being square, so once you find your spot(s), you need to make sure the cross measurements are the same for both sides.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

"Being square" is the key phrase here. The diagonals must be the same dimension

[friethmiller]

Having just replaced both of my rear quarters a few weeks ago, I just went out and remeasured. I'm within 1/32". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) I think I'm good. Now that I think of it, I think I verified this before started to weld.